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Anne Gwynne
Interviews with B – a leader of Kata'ab al Qassam
Parts 2 & 3 (part 1 could not be located)
Part 2 -- January 8, 2004
This piece takes the form of an interview with B, the revered leader of
the Kata’ab al Qassam military wing of Hamas of whom I’ve recently
written. It is the second of four article-interviews concerning B,
his family, and the Resistance. I would like all readers of these
pieces to see my pictures of the family, but I feel afraid that the
Israelis will make some new horror from innocent pictures. This is
why I have removed all names and any other reference that could cause
collective punishment to be inflicted upon them. It is one of the
many family stories of Nablus that cries out to be told.
B’s father, 72 years old, is a learned Sheikh, a world renowned Islamic
scholar who has addressed conferences in many countries, and a leader in
the Muslim Brotherhood. Much of his life has been spent under
arrest, under house arrest and in prison, including 96 days of torture
last year. He has five sons: One has a 700 year sentence for
military activities; the Second has only “one times life” – a phrase you
hear all the time. The Third is blind and sentenced to ten and a
half years; the Fourth is “number one wanted Mujahad”. The Fifth,
O, is “for the family” - a common phrase amongst the great fighter
families of Balaata and Nablus referring to the one child who will have
nothing to do Resistance so that he may be spared imprisonment and
torture. The “one for the family” is getting rarer every month as
the Zionist terrorism escalates to an unprecedented level. O is a
man of supreme courtesy and gentleness who never failed to ask me with
sincerity to join him and B whenever they had a rare hour together.
(I always declined, preferring to leave them with their precious time.)
B has four quite exceptional children (even for Nablus). His
eldest son, so beautiful it makes my heart ache to picture him, already
has the resolved, calm, demeanour of his father. B has a tiny
sister, Gh, tough as a sparrow, who herself has four children; her
eldest is 13 and he is “the best”! Her husband, J, is constantly
harassed and arrested. And so it goes on - the brothers of the
wives, the husbands of the sisters, the brothers of the husbands of the
sisters. The husbands of the aunts and any males connected in any
way.
B was a prosperous businessman with a lovely home in Raffidiya.
His work against the Israeli colonization took on a political aspect
rather than as mujahad. But the crimes of April 2002 changed that.
He knew it was his duty, as well as his right, to resist. B
committed to an active role in Kata’ab al Qassam only then, out of duty
to the legitimate Resistance (see end-note) who alone fight the illegal
occupation of his land by the Israeli army.
Anne - What are your aims and objectives in Hamas?
B - The liberty of Palestine. But we live in reality, not fantasy.
Israel was imposed upon the region, and to remove Israel is not possible
for the time being. They have no moral right but, de facto, they
are there now and in the real world for today it will be necessary to
accept only some of our rights - the rest we must leave to the coming
generations. The future must have some foundation, but that
doesn't mean we give up the struggle Al Jihad. An interim
agreement doesn't mean that we give up any rights forever. If
there were to be any agreement some things would be imposed on both
peoples by Egypt and the US.
Anne –With all of the weapons Israel has, how can any agreement be fair?
B- Yes, but roles in life say "the child grows and the man gets old".
And if we don't reach out we will get nowhere. The Jewish state's
beginning lay not only in the planning of the Zionists who then
manipulated the world, but also in the (US planned) weakness of the
post-colonial Arab states. As Muslims we have our own civilization
and we have been powerful all around the world. From the
beginning. And now the Islamic world is at the start of a
Renaissance. The US occupation of Iraq helps us by destroying any
credibility the US had left.
Any demonstration now, with the symbols of the Palestinian flag and al
Qur’an mean one thing only – it shows how Holy is the land of Palestine
in the hearts of the people, and where lie the sympathies of the mass of
ordinary people. This will lead finally (even if all Palestinians
are killed) to the unity of the Arab world in support of Palestine.
We know that we will sacrifice a lot in this way, but we have enough
courage and we are determined because the cause is just. And the
extra dimension we have is the faith which is the main engine for
change. Islam is a way of life and death. Hamas has clear
aims and we are interested in giving an accurate image to the world – we
have to put over our message better because no one will understand our
sacrifice until the reality of our struggle is understood.
Anne – How can you try to change the opinion of the US public,
which is the only opinion that counts now?
B - I want you to know that I will not wait for the charity of a changed
US public opinion.
Anne - You don’t care what they think?
B - On the contrary. I care very much. I would
love it if every American understood our situation. Eventually the
whole world will appreciate the injustice and know we have a legitimate
struggle enshrined in International Law, UN Resolutions and in the
Geneva Convention.
A – Whenever I am interviewed, the question is always asked about
este’sh:aadeen (martyr commandos) – what should I say?.
B – Say, I wish we had F16’s or Apache helicopter attack
gunships! Of course, in any case the martyr commando operations
are not the issue – the Jewish media created that blatant
misrepresentation. The issue is the occupation which is, of
course, nothing to do with security but simply the means of effecting
the land grab, and the operations will continue as long as this illegal
occupation remains in our land.
As a matter of fact, I wonder how many people, or politicians, know that
the occupation was 26 years old before the first of the martyr commando
operations –este’sh:adeen.
Naturally, we deeply regret the necessity for, and the fact of, any
death of any human being, be he Christian, Muslim, Jew or of no
religion, because Islam teaches us to respect all people. But the
military of all countries now admit that there will be civilian
casualties in any struggle, conflict or war. Our heroes,
este'sh:adeen do not, of course, want to kill any children or civilians,
and they certainly do not wish to die – they have the same life force as
you and suicide is not the purpose – suicide is strictly forbidden in
Islam. For example, no mujahad may kill himself to avoid capture
and torture. And they do not target real civilians, but most
Israelis are not civilians. The Israeli is a soldier also when
wearing a business suit as well as in uniform – he is always in his
heart a soldier. After all, every Zionist, men and women all must
serve as soldiers for three years and then they are reservists for their
life. (Remember the bulldozer corps are reservists). When a bus is
targeted it is always a “settler” bus – that is it is carrying illegal
Jewish immigrants who have stolen our homes by armed force – they are
actually using their children as human shields because they know that
their bus is a target for us. Our heroes are certain to die for
our future, whereas the Israeli pilot is safe and warm 10,000 meters up
and returns to his family after he has dropped 1,000kg bombs and fired
missiles and rockets on our people.
Anne – And you really believe that you can eventually succeed in
the struggle for justice for Palestine?
B -Virtually all the Jews in Palestine, whether they are calling for
peace or for war, came here to Palestine to steal everything they have
today from the rightful Palestinian owners. The problem between
left and right in Israel is not one of peace or war, but one of how to
make Zionism stronger in the region. They are deeply divided here.
We will achieve the victory, in 10, 100 or 1000 years. It is the
victor who writes the history. God, not us, will give the victory.
The secret of our power is in our own personal, not military
strength. Allah who created the planet and organized everything in
it, is more powerful than anything worldly, and we are a very strong
people. Two stories illustrate this:
In the Qur’an story our Prophet, Mohammad (Peace be upon him) tied
a stone on his stomach not to feel the pangs of hunger when he was
starving from spending many weeks in the wilderness, boycotted by the
people of Mecca. In the Haadiith story, our great leader Omar Al
Khattab was passing through a village when he saw a mother stirring a
pot of stones boiling in water. Why? he asked. I have no
food , she told him and I am trying to calm my hungry children to sleep
because they think there will be soup when they awaken. Omar al
Khattab was so shocked at the injustice of this that he wept. He went to
the Municipality and brought flour and meat and other food and he cooked
it himself for the brave woman and her suffering children.
All the powers in the world were against our leader, who was hungry and
weak and tied the stone on his stomach. But through his ties with God he
was able to build a huge Islamic civilization and bring happiness to
humanity for many centuries. And our women are like that, strong
like that mother.
Allah is putting his servants/followers to the test so that we can show
him how much we love him.
All the powers in the world were against our leader, who was hungry and
weak and tied the stone on his stomach. But through his ties with
God he was able to build a huge Islamic civilization and bring happiness
to humanity for many centuries.
Anne – Is the existence and manifestation of Islam more
clear and tangible in Nablus than in, say, Ramallah - where there is
more Christianity?
B - In Nablus and the villages here, yes, but also around Ramallah and
across Palestine, Islam is very strong. Northern people came
with Salah El Din when they defeated the crusaders. Most families
taught their children on a religious basis and are very proud of their
mosque and religion. The religion is the family. For example,
anyone who died without children bequeathed a mosque to the community.
The mosque is not a church in the Christian sense – it is the centre of
living, with the doors always open . And a mosque can be any kind
of room or building according to the circumstances. Islam is a way
of life for every action in every minute.
Anne – My impression is that this is a unique city filled with love,
mutual support and respect, and goodness – is there a special, pure and
perfect Islam here that may not be found elsewhere?
B – Oh, yes. (said simply and with certainty)
Anne – So in this very, very dangerous time for Palestine, facing the
combined might of Israel, the US and the UK what is the future?
B – The future? Israel will not last. Israel with its plan
to occupy from the sea to the river will not live in peace. Their
nature and their history show that their way - in non-implementation of
everything including all cease-fire agreements, resolutions and
directives, cannot go on indefinitely. Israel will reach a certain
point of power and then will fade.
If you recall the history of the Intifada – when there are a lot of
este'sh:adeen there was a lot of emigration from Israel. Pacifists
in “Israel” say that in the first year of the Intifada more than
one-and-a-half-a-million left and were replaced by 700,000 Russians.
A loss and a destabilizing factor since, when we listen to the “Israeli”
Russian soldiers talking, we can see that the Russians hate to be in
Israel and also hate the Jewish and wish to return home. But they cannot
because they say their passports are taken and they cannot get exit
visa! There is a big drugs issue , especially with the border
police, and many other criminal problems in Israel. The Zionist
state is like this window – if the frame (the occupation) is taken away
the fractured glass (Israeli society) will fall out. (B indicated
the window at his right shoulder where three 50 caliber shells came
through yesterday afternoon). At the same time more than 50,000
businessmen moved their businesses abroad, dealing a major blow to an
already bankrupt economy. And this year tens of thousands have
left for Canada and 40 or 50 thousand to Europe. The este’sh:aadi
is very effective, more than the Israeli Government admits.
The nature of the Israeli Zionists is that they cannot live in peace and
serenity. Because of the structure of their society Zionist
leaders believe that peace and calm in the society will create huge
problems for them, so it is necessary to create and continue a war
atmosphere to unite them in fear and enable their society to survive.
Anne – But in that case, if you do continue with martyr
commandos, aren’t you and Hamas playing to them then – doing what they
want?
B - No, no! They kill us anyway. Israel wants the fear that
unites them, not the emigration in which they lose their best. My
job is to create a very real fear not an imaginary one, so everything
must be carefully planned and executed.
Although Israel is the fourth strongest military in the world it is very
clear that we are stronger with our este'sh:adeen operations.
Don't forget how they were forced to flee from South Lebanon from the
Resistance of Haz’b’allah. With us, who is fighting is not the
machine but the human being. An incident with a tank illustrates
their fear:
Israelis were in a tank. Well protected! Stopped by Hamas
mujahadeen. When a few petrol bottles landed and when we started
to shoot the soldiers screamed "In the name of God we don't want to die"
in hysterical voices. They called a helicopter to rescue them -
from inside a tank – we were just men! If an Israeli soldier will
see even a single power in front of him he will want to escape.
They cannot use their weapons of mass destruction – the international
community will not tolerate it, so they have to fight us with weapons we
will be able to challenge. For example, lay-men who did not get
the opportunity to study, from Al Kita’ab Al Qassam, have made Qassam
rockets, without machinery or tools but they still created a viable
weapon of which the Israelis are very afraid. And which are
becoming more and more accurate. It is only a matter of time. They
are terrified of death. Not so Palestinians. We welcome death
because of our horrific situation, because of our struggle and because
of our religion.
Anne - What about the illegal collective punishment of the family of a
fighter after his death – doesn't this destroy families? Is
it asking too much?
B - Not true, because one week after the demolition of a family house,
all the relatives come and build another house for them as a gift from
their hearts – this is Islam.
Anne - How will you fund the future? Should there be a levy
for the legitimate resistance?
B – Yes, of course, if there is any justice – all legitimate struggles
against a brutal, illegal occupation should be properly funded –
people fund unofficially of course from everywhere in the world.
Anne – There are many resistance groups of great courage and dedication
- why do you not make a strong alliance? Would it not be better
together?
B - Because of the political aims we are in different groups – the
target is the same but the way to get there is different. In other
countries it is normal to have a divergence of views! There is an
improvement in the Palestinian people's understanding of the ways of the
various groups now. In the struggle there is co-operation, and all
respect the point of view of others. It can and does happen that
two brothers disagree profoundly - but they will always unite to protect
their house and their family.
Israel did not understand this and it was clear that, after Oslo, Israel
bet on a civil war but their dirty tricks failed. After Oslo
Israel planned that the PA should jail Hamas and Al Jihad Islami
mujahadeen. We all understood the Israeli game. But since
September 2000, 40 of the 60 Jailed Hamas leaders here have been the
victims of targeted murders by the Israelis.
Anne – We talked before about the possibility of a cease-fire – what are
the terms which are basic requirements for such a cease-fire?
B - 1) Assassinations must stop
2) Arrests must stop
3) Murder of civilians must
stop
4) Israelis must withdraw from
Palestinian cities
5) Prisoners release to be
immediately negotiated within time limits.
Demographically we are growing much faster than the Israelis, even with
the thousands dead and injured. So are the Israeli Arabs. We
will outnumber them in the foreseeable future. With this plus the
emigration caused by este'sh:aadeen; the slowing of immigration into
Israel and the nature of that “unintegrated” immigration as a
de-stabilizing factor as they have no cultural or historical ties with
Judaism or Jews; the return of thousands of violent soldiers from
the Occupation; their alcohol, drugs and prostitution problems, the
violence within the family - all militate against the long-term
survival of Israel.
Anne – And for ‘peace’ the basic requirements are…?
B – For Peace these are non-negotiable conditions – but only after
Israeli withdrawal which is the first, basic condition.
1) Al Quds (Jerusalem) as capital of the state of Palestine.
2) 1967 borders (and separation wall to be removed)
3) Right of return for all refugees
4) Colonies must go - every one
5) Release of all prisoners
There will be a continuous Jihad until all Palestinian territory is
liberated.
Anne – And these are non-negotiable ?
B – Yes.
Since I wrote the notes for this piece my interviewee and his eldest
brother have been arrested and are now in what a Zionist officer called
“the place of death” (another story) where they have been interrogated
for weeks of agony and suffering -for “interrogated” read “tortured”, of
course. This place of pain and suffering is, wait for it, the very
first kibbutz – imagine what it was said to be destined for! Now
it is a military base and torture center, a place of pain where every
published ideal of the kibbutzim is being contravened through every hour
of every day. I wonder how many people reading this spent time in
this place of horror – Betah Tikfa – as I said, the first Israeli
kibbutz. B called a few days ago and said that his health “is not
good”. Some understatement. The kibbutz name means something
near to “the key to hope”. Some mis-statement! But then,
that is par for the course under this reign of terror in this lovely,
peaceful, stolen land, where nothing is what it seems, where lies have
become accepted truths and where words “will mean what I (the
Government of Israel) say they mean” – as the Queen of Hearts said in
Alice in Wonderland. Except, of course, that there are no hearts
here, just a stony inhumanity towards a peaceful, dispossessed people.
*** End-note – excerpts from relevant UN documents concerning Resistance
The Geneva Declaration on Terrorism (May 1987) mentions particularly
“the ongoing struggle of the Palestinian people for their homeland in
the face of Israeli and United States military and paramilitary
policies”. It states: “As repeatedly recognized by the UN General
Assembly, peoples who are fighting against colonial domination and alien
occupation and against racist regimes exercise of the their right of
self-determination have the right to use force to accomplish their
objectives…” “Such lawful use of force must not be confused with acts of
international terrorism. Thus, it would be legally impermissible
to treat members of national liberation movements in…Central America…
Northern Ireland…Palestine, and South Africa, among others as if they
were common criminals.”
UN General Assembly Resolution 31/34 of 30 November 1976 “condemns all
governments which do not recognize the right to self-determination and
independence of all people under colonial and foreign domination and
alien subjugation, notably the peoples of Africa and the Palestinian
people, and reaffirms the legitimacy of the peoples' struggle for
independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from
colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation by all available
means, including armed struggle”.
Part 3 -- March 15, 2004
In this interview with B, the revered leader of the Kata’ab al Qassam
military wing of Hamas of whom I’ve recently written, B comments on the
urgency of the present situation and the stalled “peace-process.”
It is the last of a series of article-interviews concerning B, his
family, and the Resistance.
Comments on the present situation
Anne - Tell me how you see the present situation here which seems to me
to be the most dangerous ever for Palestine?
B - Here the problems are because of the occupation, tacitly agreed to
by the governments of the world - and only they can solve it for us.
Until we have a real country, that is, a Palestinian state alongside an
Israeli state, this will continue.
Anne - - And to get the Independent State of Palestine to which you are
entitled both morally and under International Law…?
B - The basis has to be, after withdrawal of the troops and ending of
the occupation –
Colonies – old/new, whatever, are not acceptable. Every one of
them is illegal and, from the first trailer, every one represented
an ‘outpost’ of the colonial project of Israel to destroy all
possibility of a viable Palestine and to annex the remaining land of
Palestine. Under International Law it is not even an issue – the
UN has condemned them so many times. If there is to be a
peaceful future they must be removed. All of them. Not one
is acceptable. The colonies, which are really military and para-military
bases, fortresses of armed aggression, are what make the continuation of
the illegal occupation possible. That was their original purpose.
Anne - What about the possibility of the expulsion of the
colonists but leaving the colony buildings for the use of returning
refugees? Surely it is unreasonable to ask the state of Israel to
demolish what are, in effect, huge though illegal, ‘townships’?
B - It was unreasonable to build these illegal colonies in the
first place. The Jewish will use the buildings of the colonies,
and the roads they have constructed for their exclusive use to the
colonies, as a trick if peace ever comes. They will use them (as
partial compensation) to pay the bill for the destruction of Palestine.
We don't want them and will not accept them in payment for our
suffering. They have been built by people with no aesthetic sense
and without respect or love for the land, and they ruin our beautiful
country.
Anne - A single-state is also talked about now: in that, of
course, the colonies would stay?
B - The old Zionist ideology of the pure Jewish state
without the existence of any other religion and the ethnic cleansing of
the Arabs, not only from Israel but from the rest of Palestine also, is
still there and very much in evidence. This is the idea of the
colonies, of course. They will not achieve this goal by exchanging
some land and leaving some colonies. This is another trick to take
more of our land. Israel’s idea of a single land will mean
exchange of land which only makes their grip tighter and join up the
colonies.
Anne - As a start, isn’t the Zionist proposal to remove some
‘illegal’ colonies a move in the right direction?
B - All the colonies are illegal. Every colonist is an
illegal. The colonies they say they will dismantle are those which
are far from Israel and very small consisting of a few trailers, which
are very costly to protect – like the one colonist in Jenin whose
protection costs $48,000 a month.
There are many colonies, like Ariel and Shiloh which are crowded at 8.00
pm but empty from 8.00 am. The fanatics who live in them and who
work in Israel are a problem for the Israeli state because they are out
of control. It is quite clear that these fanatical fundamentalists
will use armed force against their own government to resist removal.
Anne – So what will be the developments now?
B - Israel will now continuously pressure the PA and any new
government, together with Jordan and Egypt, to protect its border and
the continuing occupation. Israel doesn't want Palestine to be
thinking about its own future, so it continues to maraud, murder, injure
and arrest in huge numbers so that our energy and resources will be used
in trying to cope with this situation.
Anne – Is a two-state solution still possible??
B - Possible? Yes, just. But only with all our rights and
what we have just discussed, and not just a show to deceive
governments and the US. If real peace does not come soon, then we
need a peaceful time to rebuild our resources, our manpower and our
leadership, largely destroyed by the continuing murders.
Anne - Will Israel ever live in peace with you…?
B – No, they are not now, and never have been, interested in peace.
Read the hundreds of statements of their politicians from the day they
‘declared’ the illegal state of ‘Israel’. All of them have said
that peace, not war, is their problem. Our dream is for a real
peace, and we do not want anything more than our land of Palestine in
which we have lived, side by side with all the invaders, through the
centuries. We are not occupying anyone else’s land and we are not
trying to take anyone else’s land.
Anne - What about the Jewish dream?
B - Israel's dream is on their flag: Israel’s dream is a dream of other
people’s land – from the Nile and the Mediterranean to the
Euphrates in Iraq – from the sea to the river. The next period
will see who achieves their dream.
Anne - And who…?
B - The one who has right on his side will achieve what the
other, with might only, never can.
Comments on the ‘road map’
Anne – And the road map? Sharon has ‘partly-accepted’ it.
How do you see it?
B - Of course the ‘state of Israel’ accepts this Road Map, because they
created it and have to do nothing significant under it. It does
not give us any rights now or ever. Simply the Road Map is to
protect the State of Israel and to give Israel a “window of opportunity
in the Arab world for the first time.” It is simply something for
them to talk about, while requiring them to do nothing. Most of
the Road Map is concerned with Israel and Israeli security. Always
Israeli security – when did you ever hear anyone talk about our
security? It is we who are being slaughtered, our homes which are
demolished. It is our land which is under occupation.
For Israel – security. For Palestine – just some kind of vague
idea of the possibility of some kind of pretence at a state, at some
time in an uncertain future - just vague wishes: ‘Provisional’ state,
‘interim’ state, ‘provisional borders’ and phrases like that are used 27
times in this disordered document. How can a state be provisional
with provisional borders– ? And those provisional borders only
with Israel, the state which is trying to destroy us. It is an
instrument to control the Arab Street and also, of course, the
Palestinians even more and, most important, its main function is to stop
the legitimate Resistance from the Palestinian (freedom fighters) and to
portray our Right of Lawful Resistance as terrorism. The words
‘terror’, ‘terrorism’, ‘violence’, ‘illegal weapons’ are used at least
16 times about us and not once about the Zionists. Who is in whose
land illegally?
By using the same words and phrases over and over again the idea is
firmly planted in the mind of the reader that we, the lawful Resistance
are terrorists, when it is the Zionists who have not complied with
hundreds of UN Resolutions indicating that the occupation must end.
The document, if you can call it that, also perpetuates the US/Zionist
propaganda that we are not capable of running our own country. It
does this by constantly repeating the idea that, like children, we must
now promise to be good and behave well and be ‘democratic’, ‘fair’,
‘open and transparent, ‘honest’ and so on – the inference is that we are
everything that is the opposite of that! There are numerous such
insulting references.
Anne – So what do you think is the purpose of this Road Map?
B – Well, it is not a peace plan! I believe it is just designed to
provide a peaceful background for negotiations in which Israel will
continue to use its same tricks and negotiate more concessions and all
the time will be tightening its grip on the 6 or 7 percent of our land
which remains.
Anne – Do Jordan and Egypt, Arab countries after all, not have any
moderating input into the process?
B - Jordan, whatever is said, will not play any real role. Jordan
has no freedom to do anything, caught as it is between Israel and the US
occupation of Iraq. After Israel, the US and Egypt will be the
players. This is very bad thing because we believe the US and its
lapdog, Egypt, have the goal of creating a climate and atmosphere in the
Palestinian Street to cut out any other future resistance – to ensure
Israeli security in the name of Palestinian security. This is a
very bad thing and we think that the Palestinian people must protect
their own security and that we need no one, especially those strangers
who are already our enemy to interfere in our internal affairs.
Anne – What about the clauses that no one talks about – Israel’s
continuing occupation of parts of Lebanon and Syria and the way that the
road map insists that Syria and Lebanon (the attacked and occupied!)
must sign peace treaties with the aggressor before a provisional
Palestinian state can be discussed?
B - Of course, by tying in concessions for Israel in two more of their
aggressions, with Syria and Lebanon, the Road Map makes it not possible
for any peace. Israel has no intention, or even wish, to make
peace with either country. It will not return the Golan to Syria
for example, nor withdraw from South Lebanon.
Anne - The US and UK think that if they close all financial windows they
will destroy the Resistance – how will you finance the future?
B - They have not understood that resistance comes from inside and that
we can resist even if there is no money. How is it that people are
unaware that more than 60% of the HAMAS budget is spent on charity
work and it is this work which ensures the very survival of the
destitute whose homes have been demolished by the Israeli army.
(My note: HAMAS is an acronym from al-Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islami –
which simply means ‘the Islamic Resistance movement’). After all,
we are now, most of Palestinian Resistance Parties, suffering from
severe financial deprivation, but we are still here because we resist
with things which do not require huge finances.
In contrast, Israel spends billions of dollars on military spending.
In addition, its society may collapse from the inside. It has what
I see as insoluble social and political problems which can only get
worse as they bring in immigrants from all over the world to replace
Jews who leave and as their drug problems increase every month,
especially in the border police force, where we see that there is
widespread drug- taking.
Anne - According to the timescale this was to be the first year for the
implementation of the Road Map but, according to Bush, UK and Egypt,
there will be a withdrawal, not to the 1967 border, but only to the 2000
position. Since then we have seen the rapid building of the
apartheid Wall. What does this mean for a future Palestinian
state?
B - It has come to create a new reality on the earth, a new
horror. A barrier for one side from which they can attack us from
gun-towers every 300 meters, and through which the aggressor can sweep,
via gates and tunnels, at any moment and re-occupy Palestine within 30
minutes. And it has been planned to take even more of our land and
almost all of our water. Plus of course, thousands of dunums of
the most fertile land. Your (Western) media don’t seem to know
that the Wall is being built along the Western bank of the Jordan – it
will encircle and imprison 2.5 million people who can then be starved
out of existence.
Anne – So is removal of the wall a sixth non-negotiable condition for a
peace?
B – Of course. If Israel had any intention to prove good faith they
would have halted the building of this wall when told to do so by
Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell and even Bush! If they really want
peace they must remove this Wall. They can take this wall away
within a very short time. They can build a new environment for
peace within a month. Because the expense of building, to complete
the whole 650 to 1000 km will be very much more than the expense of
removal of the already completed part. And in any case, Israel
does not have to worry about the cost! The bill will not fall to
the Israeli Ministry of Finance. The account will go to US and
world Zionists and to the US Treasury. They can do it, but that
doesn't mean they will do it. Or that they will even consider
removing this wall.
Anne – Apart from, of course, an end to the illegal occupation, if I ask
you today for just one general principle, one action which must be
completed in order for you to consider a peace, what would it be?
B – Of course, after ending the illegal occupation... Every
colony since March 2001 to be removed at once – these are mostly
trailers and can go in a day! There are nearly 500,000,
Jewish colonists, military reservists, living in armed bases which the
IOF use as bases for violence against us. The attacking armies
living, for 37 years, in our midst! Unacceptable! There must
be a firm commitment to evacuate every colony within a short, fixed time
scale.
Anne – People in the US would say that those families must have some
time to make alternative arrangements -?
B – Why? Did they say that the millions of our refugees should
have time when they were driven from their homes at gun point with
nothing?! Every Palestinian driven from his home, or murdered in
the theft of his home, had no time to make arrangements. Every colonist
is an illegal in Palestine – do you consider the feelings of a thief
before you recover your own property?
Anne – So you utterly reject the Road Map?
B - Of course we reject the Road Map. Have you read it? I
wonder if anyone who has written about it has actually read it.
The state of ‘Israel’ just has to make vague ‘concessions’, in an
unspecified timescale, to reduce their already-illegal activity, while
we are, in 10 items, bound to ‘unequivocal statements’, ‘firm
commitments’, and ‘immediate and unconditional’ actions to end our legal
resistance and thus to end all possibility of a Palestinian state.
Our security doesn’t come into it at all. They will keep the
fourth largest military while we will not be permitted by Israel to have
even an armed police force – and for this token force all names must be
submitted for Israeli approval before they are appointed!
We will not be permitted to have any military, we will have no outside
borders, being completely surrounded by ‘Israel’ and we will not be
‘allowed’ to control even those ‘borders’. Israel will be able to
control everything we are permitted to buy or read or construct!
They will, as now, control who can go to Jordan and who will be sent
back. Any one who reads it will understand that it is a dishonest
document based on the false premise that the Palestinian Resistance is
causing the conflict, and thus the occupation, and that, somehow,
the Palestinians are ‘forcing’ the innocent Zionists into murdering,
injuring, arresting and torturing scores of thousands of Palestinians!
Anne – And what would be the position if the Resistance were to end?
B - It is, of course, the illegal occupation which is the issue,
not the Resistance. We are forced to resist the illegal occupation
– Resistance is our duty and our right. You think this life would
be our choice? Of course not. We just wish to have a normal
life – in peace with our families – like you have.
Anne - So this is not a Road Map to peace at all, only to
the annihilation of the possibility of a Palestinian state?
B - That is correct. This Road Map has only one-way traffic on it
– the Jewish – moving into Palestine. No - it is clear that the
whole purpose of this document, drawn up by Zionists, is to take all the
land by deception if not by force, and to end the resistance by
continuing to kill and imprison tens of thousands, without ending the
real issue, the occupation, thus allowing the Jewish to arrest,
imprison, murder, disable, destroy and demolish without retaliation.
Anne – You have spoken movingly about the injustice of what the road map
contains. Summarise for me its main omissions.
B - The omissions are everything which is important to us.
The Road Map does not address the five principles we have set out for
peace - basic human rights which are inviolable and not for negotiation
– after the ending of the occupation of course:
- Zionist state
returns to 1967 borders
- Right of Return
of Refugees
- Release of
Prisoners
- Removal of
colonies
- Al Quds as our
capital
No weapons will be relinquished, nor will our lawful resistance cease,
until a just peace and our security is achieved. Negotiations
without our struggle means ‘give up’ - we have no word for this in
our vocabulary or in our dictionary. We have sacrificed too much:-
- The hundreds of
assassinations
- The thousands of
shohadda (martyrs)
- The many
thousands of prisoners (mo’ataqal ascari and mo’ataqal seyyassi)
- The tens of
thousands of families made homeless by Israeli demolitions
- The scores of
thousands of injuries and the desperate plight of the disabled.
- And the 57 years of
suffering of the millions of refugees.
Anne - In this unprecedented situation isn’t any peace better than
no peace. Will ‘any peace’ do?
B – No. People are now completely exhausted, but will never ‘give
up’ – only for an interim period. Then they will renew their
rightful struggle with renewed vigour. Besides which, ‘any peace’
is not peace but just an opportunity for the Zionists to continue to
destroy Palestinian life and steal more land.
Anne – If a hudna is agreed - how long can a ‘peace’ last??
B - Months maybe! We will not break any hudna agreement.
But we will retaliate to any Zionist violation of a hudna. And we will
announce retaliation for Israeli attacks as we have always done.
Anne - How has this monumentally unequal struggle got to
this most serious position?
B - The crisis is because of Arab Governments and the US
incentives to them – well-planned for at least 60-70 years. The planning
for this started in 1940 when senior Zionist colluded with the Nazis for
several reasons – the murdered Jews were not part of their plan for
‘Israel’; they preferred to spend their resources on the Zionist project
than on the European Jews of the Camps. Also they could see
clearly that the holocaust would make ‘Israel’ possible. And they
exploited this fully.
US and ‘Israel’ call the rightful and lawful resistance ‘violence’, but
their influence would die if all of the Arab Governments would support
our ‘right to defend’ as stated in the UN resolutions, in International
law and in the Geneva Convention, where the right of the Palestinian
people to use armed force to free themselves from the illegal occupation
and to achieve independence is stated many times.
Anne – I have talked with mujahadeen from other groups and they
have almost always said, in a touchingly honest way, that they are
probably not good enough to be part of Hamas. How is Hamas special
in relation to struggles for freedom?
B – Islam underlies everything in Hamas, because Islam is within us and
is our life. Islam is life – it is not something we turn too when
life is difficult. All our operations of resistance have to be
very carefully planned because Islam teaches us that we can target
only those who are a danger to us, attacking us or driving us from our
land. We believe that the cause of our situation is that
governments do not connect with us because of the demonization of our
religion by the largely Zionist media. I think that now we
understand more and more clearly that this demonization of Islam,
together with the dehumanization of the Palestinian people, has been
underway for a hundred years – ever since the first Zionist Conference
in the 19th century.
A – Why HAMAS?
B - Why not Hamas! It is a matter of belief and conviction.
But now there are many people and many groups going our way. It is
a new political reality, as you can see from the recent results of an
opinion poll from An Najah showing large Hamas gains, and where we got
84-87% of the votes in student elections.
Anne - But… an Islamic State where, for example, I will not be welcome?
B – Oh, quite the contrary! The Islamic principle is that no one
can own this land. It belongs to all people, because it is the
Holy Land. Not just to Jew or Christian or to Muslim or other.
Everyone was welcome here throughout the whole history and everyone is
welcome now and will be so in the future. After all it was we who
gave shelter to the Jews fleeing from persecution in Europe throughout
the centuries – from Britain in the 13th century, from Spain in the
16th, and from Russia in the 18th/19th century, for example. The
state will welcome everyone to live and work here as citizens equal
under the law and constitution. Our Qur’an tells us that in Islam
anyone should be supported who needs support – even your enemy if he is
not attacking you and from then until now we strive to fulfill that.
Anne – What I have experienced here does support what you say – I
have posed the question “what would you do if you came across an
injured Zionist?” to many. And all have said that he would be
helped or taken to the hospital! This humanity, goodness and
absence of hatred is something that is difficult for us in the ‘west’ to
take on board - as is the fact that no one here expresses any
hatred for the Israelis– can you really tell me you do not hate them?
B - Yes, of course we do not hate them. We fight those
who injure us or attack us, but we do not hate them – we just want them
to go away. In Salah El Din's time there was even a Christian
leader of our military, Issa Alawan. In our religion, we should
believe in the good of other religions and protect them all we can.
If they don't hurt you. Christian, Jew, Muslim or nothing you
should defend the rights of every human being and help every one who
needs help... If I fight against anyone – Christian or Jew – I can
only do that in defence and never in aggression against a person or a
religion.
Anne - Thank you for giving me this time, and thank you for
being so open with me. I hope that we will talk again. How
much of these interviews can I publish?
B – All of them – it is the truth. I wish that you tell
people what we are, and how much we dream of peace and a normal life for
our families.
***
At the conclusion of the interviews, as we parted, B said something so
precious that I will treasure it to the moment of my death – “My God
thanks you for coming here Anna.”
Insha’Allah we will meet again.
____________________________
Anne Gwynne is a freelance journalist; she has worked with the Union of
Palestinian Medical Relief Committees in Nablus, and reports for
Pacifica Radio’s Flashpoints program.
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